Pointless Debate: Would Camoranesi have changed the Result?

By: agiamba | November 1st, 2009

First of all, I’m not sure how Amauri gets shown a straight red for his kick on De Sanctis and Contini gets away with jacking Camoranesi in the face with his elbow without a card. There’s very little way of knowing whether either were intentional, unless we can lipread De Sanctis and Amauri’s interchange. “If you want to kick me, kick me in the ass afterwards” to which Amauri would have replied “I prefer the gingerness that is your face.” Anyways, it’s a non-issue because Amauri being sent off hardly changed the game, it just means he’s going to start every Champion’s League game for the next 2 weeks.

So the pointless debate is this- had Contini not bashing Camoranesi’s face in, would we have won the match? Here’s the pros and cons, IMO-

Pros:
Tiago’s brilliant clearance was the assist for Napoli’s 3rd goal
Tiago did not do much, and constantly exposed Grygera to 2v1s
Camoranesi maybe would have created another goal, would we have blown 3-0? Maybe.

Cons:
The entire team switched off after 2-0, does that null the above points?
Tiago realizes what a dumbass he is, and will perform better in the future. Hopefully.

Oh Seba, you have no idea how badly I am going to ruin this game for us!

By the way, as much as I cannot figure out Tiago’s deal, I am not blaming him for the loss. Everyone deserves blame. Ferrara wasn’t planning on playing him, as both myself and Ciro stated, Tiago is optimal in a 3-man midfield. Aside from that, apparently, he is useless. Especially when coming back from a month out in injury. Unlike Amauri (see below video), he does not have an excuse for fucking up.

And in other news…..the Savior of Mankind (aka Del Piero) is not in the list for the trip to the Holy Land. I guess the Jews will have to wait longer to greet the Messiah.

Little did I know how well pictures could sum up the feeling in my SOUL.

Some Related Juventus Posts:

Category: Team News

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Ricardo

I too miss Marchionni. Salimhamdzic is a terrific sub for Camo, but I infer he's injured since I haven't seen him in a long while.
Anthony

I think Tiago's poor performance had a lot to do with him just coming back from injury. He's also best suited to playing in the 4-3-1-2, but understandably Ciro wanted to stick with the 4-2-3-1 since the team has been doing so well with it.

And not only would Zanetti have come in really handy right now, but also Marchionni because when Camoranesi is out we don't have any other players really capable of replacing him in the 4-2-3-1. Its better to switch to a 4-3-1-2 when Camo is out.
Jose

AS it stands, Juventus has too many injuries to play 4-3-1-2 properly and it wasn't build to play the 4-2-3-1. Next year the club needs to decide who to buy so that when Camo or Momo step out due to injury we can have some competent people going in (not Tiago or Zebina). One more thing which I am surprised Alessio hasn't brought up yet, how much could we use Zanetti right now.
HolyMann

http://www.goal.com/en/news/10...

everything he has said is spot on (maybe over did it a bit with Melo though), but i still would have preferred D'agostino.....
HolyMann

simple answer ned lowe....lack of concentration + arrogance against Bologna and Napoli, and i think the team simply didnt give a damn against Palermo
ned lowe

Fair point Nnahoj,but injuries are a part of the game n our subs should be able 2 put up a decent showing in the absence of the 'first eleven'...We have'nt had to play centrebacks in central midfield yet,it's been midfielders replacing midfielders but we have'nt been getting the same quality we get from Momo,Camoranesi, Melo & Marchisio from Tiago,Pooulsen & De Ceglie(?)...
Our season is not yet a disaster,but gifting Inter a 7-points headstart this early in the campaign is not a good thing n we should ask ourselves how we got to be in this position...
HolyMann

on whether we should be playing 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2, i really think using both would be useful depending on which team we're playing and which players need rest/are injured....both formations are working for us, its the players who are ruining the moment
agiamba

That's the problem, alex w. Marchisio, De Ceglie, and Iaquinta could play there, but it wouldn't be really ideal.
alex w

thats really unfortunate for you guys that del piero doesn't fit in the 4231. i dont really know the deeper parts of your squad. does anyone other than giovinco and camo fit in the wide parts of the 3?
shakermaker

i can't believe some people are saying we're in a crisis,we played a good game(well maybe a good 3/4 of a game)aginst napoli and if we keep playing like this we'll win,its worth remebering that a season before barcelona won the double or treble or whatever it was,they had a bad season in terms of resultsits also clear we must just play the current formation its what works even when del piero and marchisio recover we must just play this or the 4-3-2-1 like against napoli,and del piero can be our supersub
gaetano

We ll have to use melo poulson camo diego gio with pdc and that tiago.Sorry other than one of the first games, he has not really contributed anything. Zebina,molinaro,and tiago should be exchanged.. I have never really thought he had the will for us. I d even keep poulson and grygera before him.
Nnahoj

Ned, I think you need to consider how many of our players - especially in midfield - are currently out injured.
Sam

We have to and we will!
gaetano

Alright mates let's take some scalps tomorrow in the promise land!
Sam

Marco Motta isint doing anything at the moment, when he is getting game time he isint showing anything ,so is he ready for us?
mohd

don't forget Andrea Ranocchia the defender of bari he is a most buy player and if we could i would love to see us buying motta`from roma and giving ranire ( tiago poulsen and molinaro all together
Robee

Well ok, I misunderstood. If 2-0 up of course we shouldn't be sending all our men forward... I expected a midfield with Tiago, Poulsen and Melo to hold balance of the game. But I guess that's too much to ask.

We can't and mark these words, we can't play 4-2-3-1 properly with Sissoko and Marchisio out. Just as we can't play it with either one of Camo, Diego, Seba out.
So when Alex is back; I guess it's 4-3-1-2 again. Then someone has to be sacrificed again, Seba...

Jezus the more I think about, the crazier it gets, it seems... Our squad is completely unbalanced... Looks like Secco bought Fifa Football Manager.

For fuck's sake throw out Grygera, Molinaro, Zebina, Poulsen and Tiago next summer. Cannavaro will quit and Del Piero's magic will be running towards the end... I'm already worrying about next summer...
My shopping list would start with these names: Cassani, Criscito, Cassano, Kjaer, D'Agostino, Palombo.
And if Ariaudo isn't ready: loan him out. Same for Rossi, Immobile, Daud and Yago (who's been sitting on the bench for like the entire year).
Papai

Robee, I am not arguing for a return to catenaccio here. What I am saying is that on current squad depth, maybe the team needs to rethink its strategy when we are leading. Our line was clearly stretched for the last goal, when Napoli nearly ran through our center. What I am saying is we cannot play champagne football like the samp game week in and week out. Sometime we need to tactically refocus and defend our lead. OK, so that didnt happen against Bologna, but that was just plain bad overall football, not just bad defending. And that has been the problem. Our players visibly tire, like the fiorentina game, because we are not robust enough to play that kind of game for 90 mins. So a tactical rethinking is required on how we should be defending leads.
Robee

Papai, clearly I disagree with you. The times where Itlian teams won games on tactical brilliance and ruthlessness is gone. Every team now has it's own developed scouting and tactical system. We have to outplay them if we want to win. And the 4-2-3-1 really was the way to do it.
There were just stupid mistakes made at all three goals... If Diego runs back we would've avoided the third goal. If Tiago clears that ball like he should we would've as well. The corner kick is just a disaster... About 5 Napoli players free in front of Buffon. And the other goal were Melo makes a wrong decision, Chiellini wrongly steps in and makes Grosso take on two opponents...

We simply don't have the quality at the back, LB & RB. And on the bench to sub people like Camoranesi, or Sissoko.

The team wasn't made for the 4-2-3-1 but it could be towards next year with a few sales and buys.
Rossi, Yago and Daud are also excellent talents which can be useful as attacking wingers.
j

too much gloom, but still so upset with the team, lets look to the future, maacabi next, a win and we are almost through to the group stage, 8 pts right? they say 10 points is enough...

according to football italia, we are linked with sagna, solid right back, but i think he may not move, arsenal's doing well, he's their starting right back playing beautiful football, maybe in their summer? quite unlikely though. maybe grygera is looking to secure his spot after that great assist to a finally resurgent trez.
1 more goal to catch omar sivori.

forza la veechia signora, lets focus on UCL and then the league, and as blanc just said, no more mistakes please...
papai

The more I think about the defeat, the more I feel that it was a risk that we took when we decided to to "Play like Barca!" The football is attractive no doubt, but always leaves the door open for a comeback. Thing is, we cannot maintain this sort of tempo week in week out with the squad that we have, when we are always in some sort of injury crisis or other.
So do we play like Inter? Ofcourse not! What we need to do is something that the Italians are better than anyone in the world, shutting out close finishes tactically. The hallmark of calcio is our tactical knowledge, technical excellence and cunningness on the pitch. Leave the huff and puff, emotional, "Let show the spirit boys" football to the english, because that type of football can never win trophies. For winning on the long run, we need a well oiled unit, governed by a clear tactical vision, and ruthless finishing. Is Ciro up to it? Maybe next year.
j

7 points, wow, so much for title contenders huh? the only way we get back in is a long winning streak, and wins against inter. i think it's easier to comfort ourselves that, if the team is worthy of the scudetto, we will naturally get back in, if not that's always next season, with the absence of liabilities like tiago, zebina, etc. tiago needs to do more, not 1 or 2 good performance for XX matches and clear balls like a professional and zebina, who i thought is our best right back, should stay healthy or he's off.

about camoranesi, i agree its a pointless question. just hope he's fine, cause i think he's one of the first names on the team sheet, and i always wonder how are we going to replace him when he hang up his boots, he's not getting younger.
Daniel

well, at least ADP will be on the next game with trezeguet.
what did amauri and camo said on the ad?
nice one about the messiah ;)
ooBia

fuck, i had a cold shiver down my spine with a little tear drop lost in my eye when i saw the last picture.

we don't deserve this. and we will come back. the last few days everyone was gloomy for everyone, including myself, but we will prevail.

JUVE!
Juventus Shirts

I don't think we can look at the loss of one man being the reason, we should be more than a one man team with the depth of squad to cope with the loss but we need to start showing it
HolyMann

well said ned lowe....even though i answered yes, i couldnt agree with u more....and i feel thats where the coach's responsibility lies.....as Alessio mentioned before that Ciro mentioned that Tiago is most comfortable playing in a 3 man mid-field, and thats what he should of done, we should of played in a x-mas formation with Melo-Tiago-Poulsen as the 3 Gio-Diego as the 2 and Trez as the 1
ned lowe

If the answer to this question is yes, then it calls into question the depth/quality of our squad;because it suggests that outside of our first eleven,we have nothing on the bench to sustain our rhythm.
I do not expect that our players should match one another man-for-man in terms of quality, but the gap should not be so wide that our substitutions drastically reduce our output.
HolyMann

oh and answering your debate....i think if Camoranesi wasnt sent off, yes it would have changed the game, not entirely blaming Tiago, but he was a big help in the drop....plus Ciro would have substituted De Ceglie to come on in his stead
HolyMann

this is really depressing.....i dont think ill ever be able to completely digest this game....it left a scar on me, and (i hope im wrong) fucked up our chances for the scudetto this year..
Sam

FUCK :(