Calcio Debate: Who should be eligible to play for the Azzurri?

By: agiamba | June 12th, 2008

Camoranesi already plays for Italia. Amauri is looking to do the same.

Who deserves to play for Team Italy? Is is based on blood, geography, or is it merely “a football matter?” Mauro Camoranesi made his debut at age 27 (2003) with the Azzurri to a storm of controversy throughout Italy. As we all know (or should know) Mauro is from Argentina. After playing in Argentina, Mexico, even Uruguay, he moved to Italy first with Hellas Verona, before being bought by Juventus in 2002. Mauro qualified because he obtained an Italian passport, although he does have Italian ancestry through his grandparents who emigrated to Argentina.

While Mauro is a done deal, another Juventino from South America now looks to do the same. Recent acquisition Amauri has declared he would like to play for Italy, having never been called up for the Selecao. (I’m too lazy to find the special character. The C is pronounced like an S.) Unlike Camoranesi, Amauri does not have Italian ancestry, though he has been in the peninsula since he was 20.

But should he? Some might think we Juventini would say yes, but I am dead against it, for the two main following reasons.
#1- He has no Italian ancestry. I don’t think ancestry should be the basis for playing for the Azzurri, but he doesn’t even have that.
#2- We’re his 2nd choice. He’s been waiting for Brazil, and even admitted he’d prefer playing for them over us. The Azzurri should never be a 2nd choice.
#3- Taddei is eligible for the Azzurri, but has repeatedly declined an offer on the basis that he would be robbing an Italian of a spot on the team. True that.

Here’s my opinion on the general situation: Ancestry should not be a basis for these decisions, it should be about history and experiences. Roots and blood do carry some significance, but for Amauri these don’t even count. But because your grandpa was Italian (like Camoranesi) does that mean you really understand the nation? I say no. I think it all matters about your formation, if you grew up in a country, you understand the language, the culture, the history, the national quirks. That, and when you are young, it’s very unlikely you moved for football reasons. Some people think Italy should get the best players they can, I disagree. Italy will always churn out great footballers, and if we don’t I’d rather not become the French team. (Not racial, but look up how many of their players grew up in France. Most are from colonies.)

I’m of Italian blood, my dad is from Apulia, but Mario Balotelli is more of an Italian than I am. He went to scuola with all the other kids, his Italianness clearly has no motivation from football, since he was born in Palermo. Why wouldn’t he play for Italy? (Other than he plays for Inter, but he recently said he feels nothing for Inter, so we’re good!) Similarly with Podolski. He may be Polish, he may have been born in Poland, but he moved to Germany at age 2. All of his friends are probably German, etc. He should play for Germany.

Most of the time, players choose a different side to get playing time or for glory reasons. When on this subject, you’ve gotta bring up Momo Sissoko. Odd situation, he was born and raised in France but decided to play for Mali….despite never having been there before being called up. Strange huh? Or Trezegol, who plays for France despite growing up in Argentina. (I wonder if Mauro and him speak in Spanish?)

Maybe this is because I’m semi-bitter about Giuseppe Rossi (I think it’s ok for him to play for Italy though, much moreso than Amauri) or maybe it’s because I don’t want international play to turn into club play. What do you think? Do you agree with me that growing-up should be more important than ancestry? Should Amauri play for the Azzurri?

Some Related Juventus Posts:

Category: Amauri, Sissoko, Team News

« Buffon To Lead Italy At The Euro’s | Home | A letter to Donadoni: How to fix Italy’s problems »

toto

America is a country whos society is built around multi-culturism. There is no native, indigenous people. Every American could play for another country. I'm sure 90% have at the very least a great-grandfather who was born in another land. So that's stupid. Multi-culturism IS America. It is not the case for old-world European countries. Neither way is better or worse. but it's important for a nation to maintain it's TRUE identity. Unlike the French, who have lost touch with the true French people. There's nothing racist about having pride guys. Pride doesn't equate to hate, it is important to be yourself in life, and that is what this basically is. NO BALOTELLI. NO AMAURI.
Ush

"Amauri is an opportunist, and doesn’t care about playing for Italy as much as he cares about playing international football. If France had offered him a starting role 2 years ago, he would have taken it."

1. You don't know this.
2. Regardless, he has a right to be selected if he gains a passport. Same as Balotelli had to wait. Amauri gets a passport and is selected, he can belt out the anthem louder and prouder than any Italian. Just like Senna can for Spain, or Eduardo for Croatia.
alessio

I own citizenship because my dad is from Italy, no other reason. I keep it because I am proud of Italy and I do love the country, but I'm American first and foremost.

That's a pretty dumb argument to make. No, I wouldn't serve, and no, I wouldn't serve for America either. I think 99.9% of wars this century have been for bullshit reasons and like John Fuckin Kerry said, I'm not going to die for someone's mistake.

Totti made a mistake. It happens, if it was a habitual pattern then the coach should not play him but he acknowledged it was stupid, apologized, and moved on. I don't think he had a single yellow in the WC.

Amauri is an opportunist, and doesn't care about playing for Italy as much as he cares about playing international football. If France had offered him a starting role 2 years ago, he would have taken it.
Mike

Alessio, then you need to explain why you own Italian citizenship, if as you claim that someone like yourself wouldn't play for Italy, as your heart is in America, not Italy really. Citizenship comes with right, as well as obligations. As an Italian citizen, you would be expected and required to serve if Italy decides to go to war. What would be your decision then? If you wouldn't be willing to serve, then you should probably give up your Italian citizenship. But again, this would be a decision that only you can make for yourself, no one can decide this for you. I have no problem with Amauri playing for Italy, if he takes oath to play and represent this country. I have more of a problem with players like Totti that, while representing the country, is spittin on a Danish opponent. Does this makes him a better Italian than Camoranesi or Balotelli? To me players like this should be banned to play for Italy ever again.
alessio

Mike, no, I'm opposed to Amauri, and I'm not racist. I'm American, and I'm Italian (own citizenship) but I would be opposed to someone like myself playing for the Azzurri. For me, two conditions- you either grew up in Italy, or you grew up elsewhere with several emigrants from Italy. Ie- Perrotta is cool. Balotelli is cool. Rossi is ok, but no Amauri.

He has no attachment to Italy other than he happens to be playing there. Had Real Madrid or the Gooners swooped in for him instead Italy would just be a nice chapter in his history for him. Brazil is always where his heart will be.
Sterling

Amauri has the right to play for the Azzurri as much as anyone who gets a passport. Is he more entitled than young Mario? No. He'll have to get in line behind everyone else, and it's about as long as the one for the Selecao.

Also, Toto, are you a card-carrying member of Lega Nord or something? Your entire pourous argument is pretty much why my Salernitan wife rolls her eyes at a sizable chunk of Italian-Americans.

I can't wait until Balotelli's in South Africa singing "Fratelli D'Italia" louder than Camo on the pitch. And you squirming as you watch him.
Mike

Amauri must play for Italy if he chooses to do so and receive Italia citizenship. Anyone that claims the opposite is a racist. If Italian law gives you the right to citizenship after 5 years in the country, this must be respected. Citizenship gives you the same right and obligations of any other Ialian. Amauri may speak Italian with an accent, but probably speaks better than many born and raised italians. This concept is important to understand and respect in order to protect all those immigrant that have become Italians but still subject to discrimination and are treated as 2nd class citizens.
mike de robbio

I think if you have italian blood you should be able to play for the azzurri, regardless if you've lived there. Im half italian, half scottish. My name is Italian, i have dark hair, dark eyes, my grandparents and uncles are italian, i went to italy every summer as a youngster. My Italian father taught me about football, not my mother. I learned to appreciate food like an Italian and was sworn at in Italian by my Italian father when i messed up as a kid growing up. I have never lived in Italy, but i was never able to feel entirely like a Scotsman growing up, due to my dark looks and 'weird name. I reckon people like me should be able to play for the azzurri...people like Giuseppe Rossi too.
goose

"If Balotelli is as Italian as anybody…does that mean he is not black anymore? Because you can’t be both."

See: Fabio Liverani
Edgar

Toto-what part of italy is your family from, did you know italy is not a homogenous country in the north there's german and slavic people, in the south greeks and north africans.

Again Italy is a nation, not a racial group so yes you can be black and italian. What a Chinese guy looks like? it depends are you talking about Hans or Mongolians from Inner Mongolian, or Tibetean, or Turks from Xiangjin i don't know china has many ethnic groups as well? What a Mexican looks like? do you mean the mestizos, germans in the north, asians in the west, blacks, mulattos and caribbeans in the east, or the new middle eastern mexican, or the other whites in the cities or maybe you're speaking about the amerindians in the southern states? Being born somewhere does change who you are if you have a cousin in italy they behave different than you. You can also change who you are adopt new ideas change your body and many other things. I know Arabs that don't dress like arabs, hispanics that don't speak spanish(weird, right?) People move on and their pride changes, we become captivated by our new nationalism and forget the old in due time sometimes it takes one generation sometimes it takes more, but we do eventually.
Johonna

Toto, I still ask: What about Camoranesi? do you cheer for the current Azzurri squad? He is not Italian by birth or "blood" but he has a passport.

Also, I just dont understand what you mean by Italian. How do you get to be one? What are the criteria? I mean, besides being "white?"

And no matter what you tell yourself, you are most definitely a racist. To top it off, you are an idiot too.
Your own argument doesnt make any sense.

First you say that being Italian is not about culture, then you say that Italian Americans are more Italian than those in Italy because of their what? CULTURE (that's what traditions are, jackass).

Also, you say you could not cheer a multi-cultural team like France's but what you mean is a multi-racial team. If everyone on the Azzurri grew up in Italy they would all have the same culture - regardless of race. But that would not be good enough for you.

I agree, national teams are about national identity and that means immigrants and all. Italy is not "the old country." It is not a stagnant memory from 50 or 100 years ago. It is a modern, European country with people of all races. Their faces have every right to be represented on their national football team - whether or not they have slanty eyes or brown skin.

So, back to Mr. Softy's (Alessio's) question:
No to Amauri, yes to Balotelli.

If Amauri had emigrated to Italy as a child, he would be a yes, though.
toto

Why is there such things as countries then? Why not just merge the world into one. If a people having their own land means nothing to you, then you are delusional. It's the ROOT of the idea of individual nations. The root of all wars fought. The root of this great game that we all have a passion for.

As an Italian-American, what right would I have cheering for Italy if they had a squad like France's? Italy is NOT my country, Italians are my tribe. America is my country. Why would you want to root for Italy with non-Italians on it? It would have no connection to you, therefore ruining the beauty of the Azzurri. I have lived and died with the Azzurri since I was born. To let them go would just kill me. But having a multi-cultural squad would alienate me to the point where I had no right to cheer for them. I would lose probably my greatest passion (the INT). There's no doubt in Balotelli's ability, there's no doubt that he was born in Italy and does feel the desire to play for the only country he's ever known. But he's NOT italian.

Cheering for a black man from another country is not in my agenda. It's not racist, it's just stating the fact that I would have no right to support a multi-cultural squad like France's. Matter of fact, I FEEL THE SAME WAY WITH THE AMAURI ISSUE, and he's white. As long as there is 23 Italians on the squad, I feel a connection to that team.

If Balotelli is as Italian as anybody...does that mean he is not black anymore? Because you can't be both. Well, racially that is. Come on guys, you know what an Italian looks like. You know what a Chinese guy looks like. You know what a Mexican looks like. Being born somewhere doesn't change what you are. You are what you are from day one. Culture doesn't mean anything. I honestly believe that Italian-americans are more italian than the ones in the old country. We maintain old traditions, we have WAY MORE pride in the national team, we feel much more connection to our roots. No matter where you go, immigrant groups maintain their identity and seek comfort in their own. Alessio is just too soft to see the truth. He wants to believe in a happy, rainbow society with contradictions thrown all over the place. As long as he can ignore them, it'll last in his head. Act as if growing up in America wasn't always segregated in groups...Italians in one corner, Albanians in the other, the Yugos over there, Arabs over there, and so on, and so on. We know that people will always maintain their pride in their people. Nothing can change that.

Basically, I understand that the US is my country. But I have too much love for the azzurri. If I lack a true connection to that team...I'll lose the greatest love I have. I'd rather watch Italy play than anything. You give me Italy-France in one hand, or an orgy with the entire Victoria's Secret lineup in the other......and I'll choose Italia every time.
Italian

Well my beliefs are supported by this article http://www.encyclopediadramati...
LorenzoRosanero

wow, interesting debate going on. i figured it'd solely center around Amauri...but of course Balotelli is brought up due to the color of his skin. I think it's wrong. The kid deserves to play for the national team just as much as anyone else does. he is as italian as gelato. I think it's sad that some would want to exclude him because he is black. That's what this comes down to. Any other reason is just a front for the real racial sentiments that some are hiding.

And Alessio, if i were to choose to play for either national team (US or Azzurri) being a dual citizen, i'd definitely choose Italia. Besides, I don't even follow US soccer...lol
Goose

I'm liking the Podolski comparison, alessio. But I believe Balotelli is even more Italian that Lukas is German. And he probably has an even stronger connection to Italy than even Giuseppe Rossi.
Goose

Toto,
If you think Balotelli is not Italian enough to play for the Azzurri, then no one is.
He was born in Italy, raised by an Italian family, went to school with other kids from Brescia, and speaks nothing but Italian. Culturally, he is 100% Italian.

I would be proud to have Mario represent Italy because it would show the true demographics of the country. Toto, maybe you haven't been in Italy lately, but now there are Black, Asian, Arabic, and Hispanic Italians who can only call Italy their home.

And you are, in fact, racist because you are excluding a kid from a NT just because of his genes. He has every right to play for the Azzurri, and probably will when he gets his passport.
Grappiolo

To play for Italy, you should be Italian.
kari

No to Amauri. Italy don't lack of talents.Amauri hasn't Italian ancestry and Azzurri is his 2nd choice.
Edgar

Dude, you speak about genetics well for your information geneticists are finding that we're more inter-connected than we thought there is no such thing as a pure race. Nation against Nation even during the Middle-Ages was not a black and white issue you would have France who is composed of Celts, Germans(Franks, Normands, Burgunidans), Basques, Catalans, and Romans(who in turn were of Greek, Latin, Etruscan, Northern African, Egyptian, Middle Eastern descent) fighting against Britain who is composed of Celts(Britons, Irish, Welsh, Scots), Germans(Anglos, Saxons, Danish, Norwegians, Normans), and people who were there before the Celts. How is that being one people, the genetics did not tie these people together it was culture. Even groups like the Basque have had people come in and assimilate to their culture. Jews that can interact more with Arabs than with European Jews; Germans who are actually of Slavic descent etc...
alessio

If you want Italy to be a racially pure white society, you're about 50 years too late.
alessio

I'm considering deleting your comment for slinging this into political terms, but I won't. It's not liberal bullshit, it's called not being racist.

If you only have things in common with Italians, there is something really wrong with you. You would be well advised to leave America. I feel more in common with Americans than Italians. Do I feel for Italy/Italian-Americans? Yeah. Does it have anything to do with blood? NO. It has to do with the culture and family you're raised in. If you, Toto, were actually German yet raised in an Italian-American family, told you were Italian, how would you be any different? Simple, you wouldn't be.

Balotelli is a black-italian man. (kid. whatever) He's more Italian than you, sorry to spoil the party, but it's true. He probably speaks better Italian than you. He can tell you more about Italian culture and current events. Etc.

150 years ago, there was no "Italy." There was Savoy, the kingdom of the two Sicilies, etc. Times change, nations change. It has nothing to do with blood but the culture of the nation-state.
toto

Listen, I was born and raised in America yet I find comfort in italian people. the only people I have anything in common with are Italian people. Italians kids growing up were always the ones I was naturally drawn to. Italians always have been, my people. i never chose that.

Whether you like it or not, people are nothing but a strand of DNA. You are what you are. The day you are born, you will be what you were meant to be. That's called gentetics, that's called SCIENCE. if you want to beleive in warm and fuzzy bull shit, then go ahead. but the rest of us believe in solely the truth. there is such a thing as an Italian. There is such a thing as a Frenchman. Scientists are constantly researching and proving the genetic bonds that people have that originate from the same location. But if you want to believe that a black man is more Italian than me, then go ahead. BUT YOU ARE WRONG FOOLS. An Italian has certain traits. Traits that you cannot find in Balotelli. HE IS A BLACK MAN. Not an Italian man.

Say I have half of my family in Italy still...which I do. Does that mean that they are not my blood anymore because I was raised in America? They're still my cousins, they always will be. the piece of dirt that you walk on is incredibly trivial. The pretend lines we call borders are nothing more than that, pretend lines. you are what you are.

Go ahead and act like Im an asshole. But what about the infinite amount of wars that have been fought in defense of "ones people?" If it means nothing, than what happened, or is happening in yugoslavia, czechoslovakia, Tibet, Basque country, Northern Ireland, USSR, etc, etc , etc never would have either. It obviously means something to be a people and not a culture. Open your eyes guys and stop believing in Liberal bull shit.
alessio

Nothing wrong with passion. Football without passion is nothing man. I know France has the discussion a lot, it's slightly different for Italy. France it's about colonies and Africans, Italians is about oriundos and South America. I think it's harder for Italy. A lot of times, these oriundos don't natively speak the language, etc.
Jean-Michel

Alessio,
I completely agree on the deep connection. My apologies for coming off a bit passionate on this matter but we here alot about this discussion in France and I wish people would wake up and smell the expressos from time to time.
alessio

Jean-Michel, I think you're talking to Toto specifically. I think the rest of us agree with you. I certainly do, as I said in the post, Mario Balotelli is more Italian than me, and I have no problem whatsoever with him playing for the Azzurri. What I don't like is people playing for a country they don't have a deep connection with.
Sofia

i think that in camo's case because he has the ancestry that's fine but in Amauri'sc case NO WAY!! he has no italian blood that is stupid and i really hope whoever the coach is at that point does not pick him on sheer principle. That is bullshit if he can play for a country he has ZERO ties to. He might as well come over and play for Canada...
Jean-Michel

It's funny when people start talking about "true identity". What an Italian was 2000 years ago is not what an Italian is today. You may not accept it, but there are black Italians who are more Italian than you and one day some may actually play for the national side. What would you say then? "They..um...don't belong here". Then you would be exposed for being the closet racist you truly are. You may want to take Edgar's advice or better yet, actually go to Italy sometime and see for yourself. Even "old world European countries" have changed.
Neo

Definitely no to Amauri. I'd rather see talented youngsters like Giovinco, Acquafresca, and Lanzafame make it into the first team rather than a brazilian.
Edgar

also Genetically and Culturally, crap that's a bunch of bs there is no such thing as a genetic italian and culturally were did you grow up your entire life, if you say america and you've never been to italy you don't even know what italy really is. Italy is not small town, fundamental catholic, with large families were everyone eats nothing but nonnas cooking. Italy is big city, dance clubs, small families, and thanks to the multi-culturalism that has been formed by immigrants and trade you can go out to eat to many foreign restaurants. Italy is more modern than what your grandparents or parents have told you it is, even southern cities like Napoli, Bari, and Palermo are modern.
alessio

I disagree. You may not choose where you plopped out of your mother, that is certainly true. I didn't choose to be American, but the 20+years of experiences afterwards are what makes you an American. A 6 month old baby has no real connection to a land. Someone who's lived most of their life there does.

If I was good enough to play for a National Squad, despite being dual-citizen (Italy+US) I was born and raised here, and like Gabriel Ferrari, I'd only feel right playing for the US.
Edgar

toto-sure america is a built around multi-cultirism but in case you have been living under a rock so is italy and now france, england, spain and germany all those countries are home to more and more immigrants and their children consider themselves as much european as their schoolmates. this is the first world-third world effect people move and their kids most of the time do not wish to or cannot return to their parents countries and therefore they stay and become part of their adoptive society their kids marry with the locals and so do their grandkids until their family line is part of them.
Johonna

And you might rethink that "There is no native, indigenous people" when speaking about the Americas (North, South, and Central).
There are plenty of native, indigenous people!

But this is about football.
Johonna

What about Camoranesi? do you cheer for the current Azzurri squad?
Johonna

So Toto, how much Italian genetics would a player have to have for you to cheer for them? Both parents? 1 parent? Grandparents? Great Grandparents?

Seems to me, if you were born in a place and raised in a place you are of that place.

By your logic the only Americans or Canadians are the Native kind (or First Nations if you are in Canada).

I would say that culture is culture - the culture you were raised in is what is important.

So what about Balotelli's kids? If THEY were born in Italy would they be Italian? How many generations until you are official?

You say your views are not racist, but it sure sounds like they are to me.
toto

America is a country whos society is built around multi-culturism. There is no native, indigenous people. Every American could play for another country. I'm sure 90% have at the very least a great-grandfather who was born in another land. So that's stupid. Multi-culturism IS America. It is not the case for old-world European countries. Neither way is better or worse. but it's important for a nation to maintain it's TRUE identity. Unlike the French, who have lost touch with the true French people. There's nothing racist about having pride guys. Pride doesn't equate to hate, it is important to be yourself in life, and that is what this basically is. NO BALOTELLI. NO AMAURI.
toto

I think ancestry has more to do with it than anything. Look at what happened when Italy won the World Cup. Celebrations from Caracas, to Toronto, to New York, to Sydney, to Buenos Aires. The Italian National team is the team of OUR people. We, as Italians are a people. We do have a gentetic bond that goes back thousands of years, be it you were born in Australia or Antarctica.

I, as an Italian, would find it hard to cheer for a national team with Balotelli on it. Nothing racist about it. I root for Italy because they are they squad of my people. I was born and raised in America. Politically, America is my country. Genetically and culturally, Italians are my people. Balotelli is neither. He does not belong on MY national team. Neither does Amauri.

If you were born in China, would that make you Chinese? If you born on Mars, would that make you a martian? Blood is blood. Where your mother spread her legs and popped you out, is rather trivial.
Jean-Michel

The French have never naturalized anyone for footballing reasons. The French players you mentioned that are from "colonies" came to France as kids and grew up in France. Raised, schooled, and coming out of French youth clubs. The only exception to this is Trezeguet who was raised in Argentina but born in France. He came to France for footballing reasons but still had a decision to make. He could have played for Argentina because one of his parents and of course his skill, but chose France. The French national team may not be your main priority but you should do your homework before making blanket ignorant comments like that. I do not believe you were being racial however many people look at the French team of today and of the last 10 years and blurt out comments based on ignorance.
agiamba

i'm glad palermo fans and juve fans can generally agree on it, as opposed to a roma fan saying no to amauri.
KJ

Hell no to Amauri..

Italian? NO
Born and/or raised in Italy? NO
First choice? Brazil

I dont care how mad talented he is, he in no way should ever represent the azzurri
agiamba

Gabriel Ferrari holds American, Brazilian, and Italian citizenship. His triple citizenship, primarily that with Italy, sparked a debate over which senior international team he might attempt to play for, as fears arose that Gabriel might play for Italy instead of his native United States, like Giuseppe Rossi. Gabriel quickly dismissed the speculation, saying:

"I'm American. I'm born American, grew up in the US and that is the country I would like to play for if I get the chance."